Thanks! Also loved the mention of Virginia Woolf and her ideas around being "locked out of institutions". I think this was astute of her (as many of her ideas were!) in that I think we see time and again how people (often women though not always) have found ways around the system in order to create in their own ways. Your podcasts are so in depth and make me think! I had never come across the word 'pharmakon' (and have not read Derrida) so this is all new information to me.
Oh, I think you would like his work, Kate. Do you read much Judith Butler? She was a big fan of his and a lot of her work is influenced by him. I ask because I think she would have a lot of relevance to your focus especially.
Love this episode! I didn’t know the word or meaning of pharmakon and it was a delight to delve into it. I enjoyed the way you weaved Virginia Wolf and Shakespeare into this - that frame of reference was super helpful. I’m also grappling with my PhD study format and the idea of duplicity - both remedy and poison in the area I’m looking at has helped a few things fall into place conceptually.
That sounds really fascinating about your PhD. There's so much possibility in allowing duplicity and the coexistence of these extremes. Look forward to hearing more as you move along with it.
If I have understood you correctly and the word pharmakon can be applied to a character, there are lots of examples in literature and popular culture. Debatably! There's Heathcliff in "Wuthering Heights", Magwitch in "Great Expectations", Dexter from the American series about a serial killer. If I haven't understood correctly, sorry about that load of rubbish! 😄
This one made my brain creak a bit but I thoroughly enjoyed it as usual. Sheung Wan looks like an amazing place. Is it very different to the rest of HK? I really enjoyed the videos which this time I watched before listening to the podcast. You have spoken a few times about Derrida of whom I knew nothing so I decided to watch the video first. It was really enlightening. Thank you so much for this education. I would be interested to know how difficult it is for fiction writers to write about characters who have very different views and opinions than their own. By that I mean having their character espouse views that are completely contrary to their own beliefs. I was interested in the point about the fallibility of memory, that it could have positive aspects as well as the more obvious negative. Sorry if all of this is a bit arbitrary Kate but as usual you give so much food for thought I sometimes find mine tumbling out all over the place! Thank you 💛
You understand! It's not rubbish! :) Thanks for your wonderful thoughts and comments, Jules!
In any case, I think Derrida is specifically about opening up one's mind rather than closing in on ideas. Not to say one can apply his concepts to anything, but it's more about helping us make our own conclusions. This annoys some people. Ha.
I like this question about fiction writers creating perspectives other than their own. I've read a lot about people worrying that readers will think it is their own ideas. I've felt this at times. I think the answer isn't always so clear: we create the character, so it comes from within. That doesn't mean we agree with them necessarily. It can be scary to go to the dark places of our minds, but I think it's also important to do so. I love watching murder shows, for example, and find a lot of truth in those dark spaces.
Oscar Wilde was put on trial - basically for being gay, thought the trial was about influence - and his fictional novel Dorian Gray was used as "evidence" for his thoughts and behavior. Have you read his trials? I think you would enjoy it. Although so sad, because we know where he ends up, his performance on the stand is incredible and he refutes this very notion that fiction speaks of the author himself.
I wouldn't be surprised if writing fictional characters has an element of catharsis for some writers. Life is tough and we may try to rein in our passions but sometimes we want to howl our frustrations, and I suppose channelling it through a character is one way of doing it. As you say, that doesn't mean you agree with them. Also the way you represent them can be coloured by your own truth: is it a straightforward, unbiased portrait? An ironic take? Full-on ridicule? An idealised portrayal? Complicated! Although I don't write fiction my post this week is what I hope will be a humorous piece where I talk about interactions with others, relating what I say but also what is actually going on in my head. It's sobering to think that the "truth" I am revealing might be my own intolerance, and the veneer I use to cover it, but the dichotomy is that I am, I hope, standing up to what I see as exploitation. And we're back to Derrida and Pharmakon! 😆
I've never read the trials but I am an admirer of Wilde (he wrote an amazing essay called "The Soul of Man Under Socialism") so have read quite a bit by and about him. I see it's his grandson's book so I imagine it will give a great deal of insight. I think I might get that, thank you! There's a great poem by John Betjeman called "The Arrest of Oscar Wilde at the Cadogan Hotel" . I've been to see the Cadogan Hotel. (Geek!)
Yes he messes with your head a bit, doesn't he, Nathan? It's very uncomfortable to feel even a fleeting sympathy with a character that commits such horrific acts.
Absolutely. You're torn, because you can see both sides of it. It's very clever.
I'm trying to think of some more morally grey (perhaps that isn't the best term, because it's not strictly morally grey; there's a clear positive and negatve) examples, especially from books I've read.
I'm not sure I'm smart enough for this one, 😆. Pharmakon was not a word I was familiar with, so I feel educated, thanks Kate. The philosophy feels deep and I need to listen again to the start.
From a personal point of view (and I can't recall what moment sparked this), but I was thinking how painful/difficult events in life actually often serve to spur personal growth, and how (I hope!) that can be considered as pharmakon.
I appreciate the notes on fiction, and in the comments here.
Also, loved the French read. There was a part of me (not understanding a word!) hoping you were going to leave it untranslated, to leave me wondering at the mystery of it all ;)
You are a true Derridean multilingualist! Living in the linguistic unknown 😂 I wonder if there is an audio version of the whole text? (I’m not volunteering 😬) it would be fun to listen and then read the English.
You point of the personal made me think of Ben’s story project and the idea to use a prompt that changes our lives. I felt a lot of duplicity in my example and the prompt I received.
I’m sure you are smart enough ☺️, just try reading him if you’re interested. I am often getting confused in his texts and it makes me want to go deeper. I think this is part of his point. Thanks for giving it a go. It sounds to me like it worked for you! Always enjoy your comments, Nathan 🩵
Thanks Kate. Very interesting re: Ben's prompts (panic, panic!! Mine is unwritten. I've just been editing our first Dune post, which has prevented me from writing my own Thursday post!! 🙃 Too many things for an evening!) There's certainly some duality there for me, too. I need to sink into it next week. Flying to the UK, so have two long haul flights to maybe write. Not sure. Haven't tried to write on a plane before.
Hehe, I totally thought "I am in the linguistic unknown here" whilst you were speaking in French.
A thought... you mentioned Huck Finn and it always struck me that as for the character growth, while there certainly is, in the end he didn't really change his core beliefs, e.g. when he talks to Jim about getting a doctor he says "I knowed he was white inside" how would you interpret this line in lieu with his character growth and the Pharmakon angle?
Thanks for picking up with HF and that line. I mentioned it in the context of subversive language. Huck is a kid (even at the end) and even though he's learned a bit, he's still a reflection of (the stupidity of) society. In multiple instances we are asked to question what Huck tells us is 'true' and I think Twain is showing us that this is still the case at the end - which is why he uses this phrase. He is STARTING to get it, but he's still a long way off. And maybe Twain saw a lot of 'liberal minded' anti-racists who still had a long way to go. This is a subversive critique of them. I think if we read the scenes with Jim carefully we find that he is the hero instead of Huck and he is the one who has the answers. Of course, there's a room for many kinds of interpretations, which makes the book a potential poison without - one might say - the 'right' education, or at least an education that allows critical thinking and an individual's investigation of the layers.
I think you put it very eloquently. The reason this line stuck with me over the years is because, I was discussing that novel and the character's journey with my Philology professor back in the day, and it was a long discussion in his office, just the two of us, I realise he was testing me, anyway, we had one of the best discussions I had during all of my time studying. Quintessentially, if I recall correctly, I challenged his point of Huck being changed in the end with this line, and given the context and the period it was written, the author's background, we stipulated that for true change to occur, societal norms, laws and prevalent thinking at the time needed to change, so yes, subtext, question the system, change the system.
Then again, look around you today, a new edition eliminates the n-word (all 219 of them) in Twain's novel...
Excellent material, Kate. Plato always makes me think of his Cave, but I learned a new word, I must have heard before and forgotten. It's important to refresh, even the Cave analogy, Pharmakon, "a remedy for stagnant thinking." Put that on TV as a commercial and see it fly off the shelves!
I saw Dexter was mentioned, but you can also take Walter White. How many viewers side with the wife vs Walter? Why side with Walter knowing what he does is bad? Interesting how far you can push things before the cure turns into poison and vice versa.
Oh I like this combination of Platonic thought! Maybe it's useful for Substack marketing as well 🤣
WALTER! Yes, this one I have seen in full. I absolutely love it and the way things keep changing so unpredictably. And he is so sympathetic as you say, and then so BAD as well. Jesse, too. (I think that was his name?) The best kind of show because it is constantly shifting and so you question everything in your mind. Great example, Alexander. Thanks so much for listening and your ideas!
Thanks for the shout out to my piece, Kate! 😀
I liked the way it fits into this discourse and expands it. Really good ideas!
Thanks! Also loved the mention of Virginia Woolf and her ideas around being "locked out of institutions". I think this was astute of her (as many of her ideas were!) in that I think we see time and again how people (often women though not always) have found ways around the system in order to create in their own ways. Your podcasts are so in depth and make me think! I had never come across the word 'pharmakon' (and have not read Derrida) so this is all new information to me.
So much comes back to Woolf! One way or another.
Oh, I think you would like his work, Kate. Do you read much Judith Butler? She was a big fan of his and a lot of her work is influenced by him. I ask because I think she would have a lot of relevance to your focus especially.
Thanks Kate!
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v26/n21/judith-butler/jacques-derrida
I have come across Judith Butler quite a bit in my English studies!
Love this episode! I didn’t know the word or meaning of pharmakon and it was a delight to delve into it. I enjoyed the way you weaved Virginia Wolf and Shakespeare into this - that frame of reference was super helpful. I’m also grappling with my PhD study format and the idea of duplicity - both remedy and poison in the area I’m looking at has helped a few things fall into place conceptually.
Thanks Leila!
That sounds really fascinating about your PhD. There's so much possibility in allowing duplicity and the coexistence of these extremes. Look forward to hearing more as you move along with it.
If I have understood you correctly and the word pharmakon can be applied to a character, there are lots of examples in literature and popular culture. Debatably! There's Heathcliff in "Wuthering Heights", Magwitch in "Great Expectations", Dexter from the American series about a serial killer. If I haven't understood correctly, sorry about that load of rubbish! 😄
This one made my brain creak a bit but I thoroughly enjoyed it as usual. Sheung Wan looks like an amazing place. Is it very different to the rest of HK? I really enjoyed the videos which this time I watched before listening to the podcast. You have spoken a few times about Derrida of whom I knew nothing so I decided to watch the video first. It was really enlightening. Thank you so much for this education. I would be interested to know how difficult it is for fiction writers to write about characters who have very different views and opinions than their own. By that I mean having their character espouse views that are completely contrary to their own beliefs. I was interested in the point about the fallibility of memory, that it could have positive aspects as well as the more obvious negative. Sorry if all of this is a bit arbitrary Kate but as usual you give so much food for thought I sometimes find mine tumbling out all over the place! Thank you 💛
You understand! It's not rubbish! :) Thanks for your wonderful thoughts and comments, Jules!
In any case, I think Derrida is specifically about opening up one's mind rather than closing in on ideas. Not to say one can apply his concepts to anything, but it's more about helping us make our own conclusions. This annoys some people. Ha.
I like this question about fiction writers creating perspectives other than their own. I've read a lot about people worrying that readers will think it is their own ideas. I've felt this at times. I think the answer isn't always so clear: we create the character, so it comes from within. That doesn't mean we agree with them necessarily. It can be scary to go to the dark places of our minds, but I think it's also important to do so. I love watching murder shows, for example, and find a lot of truth in those dark spaces.
Oscar Wilde was put on trial - basically for being gay, thought the trial was about influence - and his fictional novel Dorian Gray was used as "evidence" for his thoughts and behavior. Have you read his trials? I think you would enjoy it. Although so sad, because we know where he ends up, his performance on the stand is incredible and he refutes this very notion that fiction speaks of the author himself.
https://www.abebooks.co.uk/book-search/title/irish-peacock-and-scarlet-marquess-the-real-trial-of-oscar-wilde/author/holland-merlin/
I wouldn't be surprised if writing fictional characters has an element of catharsis for some writers. Life is tough and we may try to rein in our passions but sometimes we want to howl our frustrations, and I suppose channelling it through a character is one way of doing it. As you say, that doesn't mean you agree with them. Also the way you represent them can be coloured by your own truth: is it a straightforward, unbiased portrait? An ironic take? Full-on ridicule? An idealised portrayal? Complicated! Although I don't write fiction my post this week is what I hope will be a humorous piece where I talk about interactions with others, relating what I say but also what is actually going on in my head. It's sobering to think that the "truth" I am revealing might be my own intolerance, and the veneer I use to cover it, but the dichotomy is that I am, I hope, standing up to what I see as exploitation. And we're back to Derrida and Pharmakon! 😆
I've never read the trials but I am an admirer of Wilde (he wrote an amazing essay called "The Soul of Man Under Socialism") so have read quite a bit by and about him. I see it's his grandson's book so I imagine it will give a great deal of insight. I think I might get that, thank you! There's a great poem by John Betjeman called "The Arrest of Oscar Wilde at the Cadogan Hotel" . I've been to see the Cadogan Hotel. (Geek!)
I hope you like it! It’s really just the transcript but his grandson put it together. It reads like a psychological play.
Enjoy your extended exploration of fictional characters. Always interesting ideas from you 💜💜
Dexter is a great example from a TV show!
Yes he messes with your head a bit, doesn't he, Nathan? It's very uncomfortable to feel even a fleeting sympathy with a character that commits such horrific acts.
Absolutely. You're torn, because you can see both sides of it. It's very clever.
I'm trying to think of some more morally grey (perhaps that isn't the best term, because it's not strictly morally grey; there's a clear positive and negatve) examples, especially from books I've read.
Did you like Dexter New Blood?
I haven't seen it. Is it good?
Jules, I thought Dexter too!
I have the DVD and have never watched it. Now I'm super intrigued to go back to it...
tsk tsk tsk ;)
NEVER WATCHED DEXTER? 😱
LOL. Ok!!
😉
Oh that's reassuring Leila! I wasn't sure but he was the first character I thought of.
I'm not sure I'm smart enough for this one, 😆. Pharmakon was not a word I was familiar with, so I feel educated, thanks Kate. The philosophy feels deep and I need to listen again to the start.
From a personal point of view (and I can't recall what moment sparked this), but I was thinking how painful/difficult events in life actually often serve to spur personal growth, and how (I hope!) that can be considered as pharmakon.
I appreciate the notes on fiction, and in the comments here.
Also, loved the French read. There was a part of me (not understanding a word!) hoping you were going to leave it untranslated, to leave me wondering at the mystery of it all ;)
You are a true Derridean multilingualist! Living in the linguistic unknown 😂 I wonder if there is an audio version of the whole text? (I’m not volunteering 😬) it would be fun to listen and then read the English.
You point of the personal made me think of Ben’s story project and the idea to use a prompt that changes our lives. I felt a lot of duplicity in my example and the prompt I received.
I’m sure you are smart enough ☺️, just try reading him if you’re interested. I am often getting confused in his texts and it makes me want to go deeper. I think this is part of his point. Thanks for giving it a go. It sounds to me like it worked for you! Always enjoy your comments, Nathan 🩵
Thanks Kate. Very interesting re: Ben's prompts (panic, panic!! Mine is unwritten. I've just been editing our first Dune post, which has prevented me from writing my own Thursday post!! 🙃 Too many things for an evening!) There's certainly some duality there for me, too. I need to sink into it next week. Flying to the UK, so have two long haul flights to maybe write. Not sure. Haven't tried to write on a plane before.
Hehe, I totally thought "I am in the linguistic unknown here" whilst you were speaking in French.
Also hoping to write on my planes to the US tomorrow! 💫
(Depends if there are any good films...)
(Also was thinking this 🤣)
You had me at Derrida....Another great episode!
A kindred spirit! (Derrida fan) Thanks for listening and restacking, Brian!
A thought... you mentioned Huck Finn and it always struck me that as for the character growth, while there certainly is, in the end he didn't really change his core beliefs, e.g. when he talks to Jim about getting a doctor he says "I knowed he was white inside" how would you interpret this line in lieu with his character growth and the Pharmakon angle?
Thanks for picking up with HF and that line. I mentioned it in the context of subversive language. Huck is a kid (even at the end) and even though he's learned a bit, he's still a reflection of (the stupidity of) society. In multiple instances we are asked to question what Huck tells us is 'true' and I think Twain is showing us that this is still the case at the end - which is why he uses this phrase. He is STARTING to get it, but he's still a long way off. And maybe Twain saw a lot of 'liberal minded' anti-racists who still had a long way to go. This is a subversive critique of them. I think if we read the scenes with Jim carefully we find that he is the hero instead of Huck and he is the one who has the answers. Of course, there's a room for many kinds of interpretations, which makes the book a potential poison without - one might say - the 'right' education, or at least an education that allows critical thinking and an individual's investigation of the layers.
What do you think??
I think you put it very eloquently. The reason this line stuck with me over the years is because, I was discussing that novel and the character's journey with my Philology professor back in the day, and it was a long discussion in his office, just the two of us, I realise he was testing me, anyway, we had one of the best discussions I had during all of my time studying. Quintessentially, if I recall correctly, I challenged his point of Huck being changed in the end with this line, and given the context and the period it was written, the author's background, we stipulated that for true change to occur, societal norms, laws and prevalent thinking at the time needed to change, so yes, subtext, question the system, change the system.
Then again, look around you today, a new edition eliminates the n-word (all 219 of them) in Twain's novel...
I think YOU put it quite eloquently. Maybe we need a special on Huck Finn sometime, as well as considering the changes to the text and it’s impact.
I would need to re-read Huck... uncensored. 😅
Excellent material, Kate. Plato always makes me think of his Cave, but I learned a new word, I must have heard before and forgotten. It's important to refresh, even the Cave analogy, Pharmakon, "a remedy for stagnant thinking." Put that on TV as a commercial and see it fly off the shelves!
I saw Dexter was mentioned, but you can also take Walter White. How many viewers side with the wife vs Walter? Why side with Walter knowing what he does is bad? Interesting how far you can push things before the cure turns into poison and vice versa.
Oh I like this combination of Platonic thought! Maybe it's useful for Substack marketing as well 🤣
WALTER! Yes, this one I have seen in full. I absolutely love it and the way things keep changing so unpredictably. And he is so sympathetic as you say, and then so BAD as well. Jesse, too. (I think that was his name?) The best kind of show because it is constantly shifting and so you question everything in your mind. Great example, Alexander. Thanks so much for listening and your ideas!
Marketing will be burnt to a crisp if they leave that cave 🤣 besides, they have no desire to leave anyway.
Yep, Jesse Pinkman, good heart, tragic character. A show you can rewatch many times.
Also... have a Merry Christmas, Kate!
Merry Christmas! 🎄