This is such an important topic and for me is key for immersion, breaking down barriers and enriching our experience, and our lives in general, if we are open to it. Multilingualism is what will save us.
Great that your son is learning German! Sehr gut! Ich muss mehr Deutsch sprechen...
I keep thinking of Shogun (80s TV series, Richard Chamberlain) where they had to fight to do the show without English subtitles and have the audience experience what the protagonist experiences, having to learn Japanese, not understanding, being thrown into a foreign environment, trying to survive... much like me when I arrived in France without knowing a word of French. 😅
Excellent article, Kate. One thing that I keep wondering, though, is how much multilingualism in media/literature is too much and whether it would be better to stick to one's mother tongue, i.e. I would write in German! German is the Power Language, you say? Interesting. My relationship with nationality, the concept of countries, arbitrary borderlines and language is complex and speaking 3.5 languages only adds to that complexity.
If we take French, there were so many different dialects which were all either suppressed or banned and pupils were punished for speaking them (Occitan) in order to standardise language throughout the country. In Bavaria, you walk from one village to the next and the Regiolect is so different you'd need an interpreter, also Northern Germany needs and has subtitles for any Bavarian broadcasts because... impossible to understand for them. No problem the other way around.
One question that was raised in a recent class by my French students: Should we write in our mother tongue or in a second language we speak fluently and how fluent do we need to be in order for that to be feasible? Kafka wrote in German. Exophonic writers. There are many, Camus, Joseph Conrad, Tom Stoppard... Who's your favourite Exophonic author?
Back here to say thank you for so much richness in your comments, Alexander. The Shogun show really interests me -- I wonder who had this resistance to the subtitles and how it was all decided. Very progressive for the time and seems to have worked.
I didn't realize Bavarian is so different from 'German'! So I assume you speak both? And the schools must use High German?
Schools teach High German. There are over 60 known Bavarian Dialects and not all Regiolects are registered as separate dialect but still words can completely differ between villages less than 30 km apart! Fascinating. I studied German Linguistics :)
Re: Shogun, there’s a remake due next year and from the trailer I saw it has subtitles. Figures...
I have a Fantasy novel written in German that used dialect for some character, has some tech language in English and is a satire on the high fantasy genre, a mix of Tolkien, Pratchett and Adams. 450 pages. Collecting dust in a drawer 😅
I only saw "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" I know... I really must read the book! What did you make of the adaptation, if you saw it? Mine is Camus. La Chute.
Also a great choice though I haven't read that book by Camus!
I watched the film sooooo long ago...I remember liking it, but so much was lost in the adaptation, or perhaps it was subtle, and at that time I had only read Kundera, not taught him. I should go back to it :)
You make some really interesting points about multilingualism. I think we would all agree that it is important to keep languages alive, particularly where they have been banned (Welsh was for a time), but sometimes a language can be promoted for political reasons and that makes me uncomfortable, particularly when its use becomes impractical or disproportionate.
I studied The Secret Agent by Conrad at school and was astonished not only by the brilliance of the book but the standard of his English which if I remember rightly he learned in adulthood. Now that's facility with languages!
So much to think about once again. My mind is filled with thoughts about the use of language in fiction now.
I thought of Nabokov just now because in Lolita he dips into French to add a certain flare to Humbert Humbert and I found it utterly compelling. It brought his character to life, little quips here and there that simply wouldn't have had the same effect in the same language (though, makes me wonder, is this totally lost in the French versions of the book?!).
Another author who comes to mind who plays with dialect and language a lot of Mark Danielewski, especially in his The Familiar (second time I've thought about this today actually; Brian Funke brought Mark to mind when I was reading his latest poem). If you haven't read it, each character in The Familiar is from a different part of the world, with a different ethnicity/background/quirks and that influences who their chapters are written and how they're set out on the page. There's whole chapters in Singlish, which were baffling to me at first. There's gangland LA vibes, computer coder code-driven narration ... So so much. It blows me away how Mark did it.
Any thoughts on *fictional* languages that appear in fiction? The Dothraki in ASoIaF, or Elvish in Lord of the Rings. Some others have gone to huge lengths to create languages and put them into their fiction, sometimes in large amounts, other times just scant words. It can certainly enrich the experience if done well.
Humbert! What a great reference. The Russians in general seem to enjoy using French (War and Peace). I guess it used to be the aristocratic language. I don't know a lot of details about this. Anyway, I guess it was also first published in Paris so your point is especially interesting.
Don't know Danielewski; sounds great. Adding it to my ever-growing wonderful list. Singlish is so fun; that's enough of a reason for me to check it out already. You probably have a lot of it along with Kongish in Melbourne?
Great thoughts about the fictional languages. I mean, Tolkien was a linguist so it's really fascinating to see what he did there. Newspeak, Nadsat...these all really interest me. There are so many languages already around one could use; I think it shows the cognitive interest merely in the way languages work vs their cultural implications. I guess in a similar way, one can use a new language to be free of the implications when creating one's own fiction. What do you think?
Great additions there with Newspeak and Nadsat. I agree that it frees you of a lot of the issues of implication. I imagine it must give you incredible freedom, actually, but it also must be a huge amount of work to bring in not only a whole new world but a language on top of it. I'm embarassed to say that I didn't know Tolkien was a linguist! That makes a lot of sense!
I think you'd be quite interested with Danielewksi as literary fiction 😄 But yeah, that TBR pile!! (Also, I feel icky self-linking here so I hope you don't mind, but I actually wrote a short piece way back in my nascent Substack days: https://slake.substack.com/p/the-inimitable-brilliance-of-mark. There's a few images of pages from his books to give you a flavour.)
Me again. Just wanted to add something about spaces that are "on the margins". It is interesting how people view their surroundings, location, home area, how they identify with the place they live. We seem to struggle with it, but that is probably just our ignorance of the geography of a particular area. It can become unnecessarily complicated as far as identity is concerned. For example the UK postal system can make life very confusing when one's postal town, ie the town you must include in your address if you want your mail delivered, is in a different county to the one in which you live, or even, as in my case, another country. It makes concepts of location and identity very nebulous. I have other examples of how this can lead to incorrect assumptions about allegiances to tribes but I think that's quite enough from me for one day. Thanks for another interesting post. I'm going to watch those videos of Quarry Bay now!
This is also super fascinating. So you mean, because of your postcode, people assume you’re on the English or Welsh side (culturally/politically) -- something like this? It sounds so complicated. Do you identify more with the space of a different postcode? I’ve never thought of the post this way! And then - there are all those texts arriving by post. Letters, books, etc. or online shopping. You could spy on post and try to interpret someone’s identity. And then you might be way off!
Thanks for listening and your comments. Always enjoy what you have to say! :)
I am always very stimulated by what you write so I talk a lot! 😄
I am probably unusual because I have never been tribal. I find tribalism has more disadvantages than advantages, consequently I don't "identify" with locations in that way. I am not proud to be Welsh, nor ashamed of it. My Welshness is just a fact. Culturally
my tastes gravitate more towards English, however Welsh culture is I think rich and valuable and I would want it preserved if possible.
I think that the postal system here must be run for the convenience of the Royal Mail, and this causes confusion. In my case, the address begins logically enough with house, street, village, then the postal town. The postal town is not my nearest town, nor is it in England, where I am, but Wales. Consequently, if I then add the county, which is in England, the county will not match the town, which is in a different county and country! Finally, the post code is linked with the postal town, so we are back to Wales! If you can follow that you deserve a medal. And I haven't even started on the cultural/political implications of all this nonsense! Please don't block me, I would very much miss The Matterhorn 💛
Hahahaha no you’re safe. This is mind blowing stuff. I think it deserves a full post. Or it could be a song or an interactive choose your own adventure. I am attempting to follow the postal stuff, but I can relate to the fact element of nationality.
Hey Jules, thanks for sharing. It's really interesting. My parents live near Llanfair on the borders. It's always quite odd how the roads into Wales wind in and out of England, the sinage slipping into Welsh and back to English and then Welsh again. Borders are such fascinating places.
Hi Simon. It is interesting. I'm not entirely au fait with the history of the borders but I think they have changed over the years, so places that were once in one country are now in another. Now that we are getting used to the extended 20mph speed limits in Wales it can be very confusing when I cross the border into England and it's back to 30mph - a relatively new anomaly if you on the borders! It is also interesting how the languages mingle as regards street and house names in this area. I imagine that may be true of the area your parents live in too.
I've just had to pause the audio because it's uncanny that I am just putting the finishing touches to an article about a trip to Prague where we visited Kafka's house, and spoke phrase book Czech (after a fashion)! I am not superstitious - honestly - but sometimes it's amazing how there are such connections between Substack writers. I won't use the word psychic or I will lose all credibility! 😄
I relate very much to your exploration of language and dialect. I have always been fascinated by it, and though I am fluent only in English I enjoy it very much when I have the opportunity to communicate in another language, no matter how hilarious the consequences. I agree that it's good to go with the flow if you have the nerve, also that each language has its own musicality. I find French so beautiful to listen to and it does have a lightness that is very different to the sensation of German, but I also like that. Lovely that your son will be multilingual.
Ohhhh looking forward to this! I like to think we weave a web of ideas. Do you like reading Kafka, too?
Agree about the sound of French v German but I do like German. It’s just harder for me to pronounce 😅 it sounds very soft when some people speak it, not that softness is always what we want to strive for! More melodic maybe I mean.
I haven't read Kafka - the house where Kafka wrote was my husband's area of interest!
German pronunciation has some sounds that are not easy. E.g the "ch" sound can be soft or hard I think? I have no problem with "ch" (back of the throat) because I am used to that in Welsh. Also the pronunciation of "r" is not easy and can snag in the throat I find. I'm not bad at accents when attempting other languages but since my knowledge of them is poor it has been known to get me into trouble when the person I am speaking to thinks I know more than I do and they go off into a long spiel leaving me lost! The reverse is true of some people. I was recently watching a doc of Francis Bacon being interviewed in French (for another piece!). He was practically fluent but made no attempt at a French accent. I thought it was a shame since he spoke it so well, but I think maybe some people don't hear the music of the sounds when it comes to accents. We all pick up on different things, don't we?
Definitely we do. I also tend to pick up regional accents, which gets me into trouble because then it sounds like I’m mocking people. I believe we discussed this before but slightly different context?
As for German, I find the additional vowels especially difficult. The ü for example. It would be fun to read Kafka in German.
I imagine you would have a lot to say about Welsh as well! Do people write in Welsh? Well now I am carrying on. :)
My mum used to absorb accents. She had relatives from Liverpool and from Newcastle upon Tyne and would start picking up their accent when chatting with them. I think it shows empathy...mirroring?
Yes the umlaut can be tricky can't it!?
Yes there's a lot of Welsh literature. Welsh grammar is a nightmare. When I wrote Welsh essays at school and got them marked the pages would be covered with red ink. When we asked the teacher to teach us the rules he used to say "you just have to get a feel for it!" I dropped Welsh!
It's the mutations in Welsh that flummoxed me. For example, the Welsh word for "cat" is "cath", but to say "my cat" you would say "fy nghath". The word for "dog" is "ci", (pronounced 'key') but "my dog" is "fy nghi". And it gets worse.
As a German, I find French quite hard. On the other hand, rrrrrolling the RRR is no problem ;)
I was fascinated at how French pronounce some English words, esp. if they start with H or end on "ine" like "engine". äöü and ß yes, yes, and three articles, male, female, neutral vs two in French and one in English. Also, all genders are different! DIE Sonne - LE Soleil, DAS Auto - LA voiture, DER Berg - LA Montagne... I mean... wtf is going on?? :) I love accents, although, it can be tough to understand sometimes. Singing Beowulf in class with your students in Old English is fun, too!
Yes, languages are a joy so it can be frustrating when you're trying to learn them. I found German grammar difficult and never mastered it at school, but I love trying to speak it. I found French grammar easier. I think English would be a nightmare to learn if it were not so ubiquitous. It is such a hybrid language with lots of odd rules.
On the other hand, French is the only language where I had contradicting Grammar books in school as I recall. Talk about odd rules, esp. when counting beyond 69... 😅
Why is le vagin MALE?! That always baffled me lol. French is hard. But it is easier if you know Russian or Spanish. Similar rules. But Russian may be easier because the rules and exceptions make sense.
Great podcast. When listening to this, a book that immediately came to mind was The Yield by Tara June Winch. It is about a Wiradjuri family in Australia, their land threatened by mining, and the dictionary of their language that the grandfather is writing. The story is interspersed with these beautiful dictionary entries of Wiradjuri words, a layering right there, giving a sense of the richness of culture and ways of seeing that is under threat.
When I was at school I once wrote a story with several pages of dialogue in a fictional language. The English teacher asked whether I could provide a translation and I think I was offended at the idea. Another of those episodes where I want to go back and ask a younger me what I was thinking about!
Wolf Hall is laced with Italian (a song, food, names). Unusually for an Englishman, Cromwell was fluent in Italian and had spent some years there. His cosmopolitanism (both insider and outsider) gives a unique perspective on Englishness throughout the books.
Thanks so much, Simon! I don't know Winch's work. That sounds great. I think there's a lot more to say about indigenous languages as well in this concept. I think also of Erdrich's The Sentence (Minnesota).
Wow, you used a fictional language! English teacher's dream or nightmare :) For me it's a dream. So creative and fascinating the choice you made to do this.
I look forward to reading all this Italian in Wolf Hall! I had no idea about that aspect.
This was absolutely fascinating and illuminating. Your son enjoying German makes me think about the times when my granny and I used to sing in French and German, recite poems in these languages, just for fun. And of course, the part about two languages merging together made me think about a game character in two games (Control and Alan Wake II) whose name is Ahti. He's a Finnish janitor who often speaks words in Finnish between English, making a whole jumbly mess, probably on purpose. He's meant to be funny, but also wise. He would say sentences that feel like proverbs that are supposed to guide you somehow in your journey. And it all sounds so very Finnish culturally. I thought it was cool how Remedy started including Finnish culture and lore in their games. Fascinating people, they are!
The Finns intrigue me so much! (As does game culture now :) ) Thanks for these great additions to the conversation, Nadia.
What language context do you currently live/work in? It’s funny what sticks with us from childhood. My mom’s grandparents were also French and German. She majored in French at university but never went to France until I moved there and she was already in her late 50s! But my point is she was influenced by her grandmother even though the next generation in America at the time was told to forget their mother tongues. Then, we delighted in French things like songs or cooking and I had this desire all the time to learn more.
I’m floating into nostalgia but I think there is such a wonderful matrix of life connected through languages like this.
Your family history is beautiful. No wonder you all gravitate towards it. It's in your blood. It's a shame America wasn't very welcoming of different languages. I wonder how it is in countries with multilingualism. If people get along well. Maybe there may be a bit of tension but overall harmony? Where I was born (Kazakhstan), Kazakh and Russian were main languages. I'm Russian so I spoke that but also learned a bit of Kazakh. English was also taught in school. Bu when we immigrated to Canada, I forgot everything lol. Then I relearned English, then learned French since I lived in Montreal. Learned a bit of Spanish and German in school too. Ever since then, all these languages have been a jumble in my head. Funnily, at home, I spoke Russian with my family. Russian and French with my granny. French in school, but English during recess. Now, in the States, I speak Russian with my parents when I call them. English, as it's easier, with my husband although we're both Russian. I only speak French when there's a necessity, alas. For work, I've only been using English.
A great trove of material. Thank you, Kathleen. I have a lot to say on this subject, as I am an English teacher and an ex-pat living in Barcelona. I speak three languages all day long, and at certain times of my life, have studied four more. Since I don’t need those languages for any practical reason, time constraints have forced me to let them go somewhat, so I would never claim them as languages I speak. Yet each has left an imprint, and I can’t overstate how much all language study affects your linguistic life.
You know that with language learning, the memorization is continuous, and the brain is always looking to make associations. So if I say tabaq, plate in Arabic, it helps me to remember that tabac in French means tobacco. Things like this. The multilingual experience gives us a richer base of cognitive metaphors, and much more poetry. For example, if we're fighting a fire in English, we are pumping water in Spanish or French. If a bicycle headlight in European Spanish is simply a ‘lámpara’, in Argentine Spanish it’s ‘un sol de noche’, a sun in the night.
Another thing is construction. When it feels right, I sometimes change word order in my writing, and this is strictly because of having studied other grammars.
And finally, I have three times the etymological input of a monolingual writer. Nothing is wasted.
As I said before, the brain is constantly making new associations and consolidating everything we learn.
Thanks so much for your comment on your experience with multilingualism, Camila! Barcelona (especially as an English teacher expat) is certainly an interesting language matrix to consider. I love the way you talk about the way your brain works among languages. On a very simple level, I always used French to learn Italian because they are so similar. Also some words feel more correct in certain languages and I occasionally mix them in. My husband does this with a few Khmer words he picked up during his 3 years in Cambodia. I also like the ideas about grammar and structure. This is true! My multilingual students have had to learn it’s a blessing not a curse :)
Hi Kate! Your podcast accompanied me on my bike commute home. We have more in common that I realised - I’m still working in international schools and also have deep values around multilingualism. And Switzerland is now in our top 2 for places to move to next. I’ve lived in Geneva twice before, loved it, and less excited about German speaking Switzerland not just bc I don’t speak German and do speak French, but bc even if we learn German, that’s indeed not super helpful on the streets and playgrounds for chit chatting. Anyway, we may end up there anyway, but its indeed a concern. Enjoyed listening and I enjoy as a reader having multiple languages woven in a text...
Vanessa! That's so great. We will have to chat about this :)
Well, I really wouldn't worry about that. I find that Swiss Germans are often happier to speak English or French than High German (even though they all know it fluently from school). Also foreigners using High German are forgiven much more than Germans using it :) In any case, most people are friendly like anywhere and if you can offer French as well, you should be all set. I even find the government officials to be both friendly and speak English willingly (unlike Austria...). I often use French with people as well and it turns into a fun connection. The ski areas are something else - you often hear about 6 languages intermixed at a single table at après haha, fun for an international jet setter like yourself!
This is such an important topic and for me is key for immersion, breaking down barriers and enriching our experience, and our lives in general, if we are open to it. Multilingualism is what will save us.
Great that your son is learning German! Sehr gut! Ich muss mehr Deutsch sprechen...
I keep thinking of Shogun (80s TV series, Richard Chamberlain) where they had to fight to do the show without English subtitles and have the audience experience what the protagonist experiences, having to learn Japanese, not understanding, being thrown into a foreign environment, trying to survive... much like me when I arrived in France without knowing a word of French. 😅
Excellent article, Kate. One thing that I keep wondering, though, is how much multilingualism in media/literature is too much and whether it would be better to stick to one's mother tongue, i.e. I would write in German! German is the Power Language, you say? Interesting. My relationship with nationality, the concept of countries, arbitrary borderlines and language is complex and speaking 3.5 languages only adds to that complexity.
If we take French, there were so many different dialects which were all either suppressed or banned and pupils were punished for speaking them (Occitan) in order to standardise language throughout the country. In Bavaria, you walk from one village to the next and the Regiolect is so different you'd need an interpreter, also Northern Germany needs and has subtitles for any Bavarian broadcasts because... impossible to understand for them. No problem the other way around.
One question that was raised in a recent class by my French students: Should we write in our mother tongue or in a second language we speak fluently and how fluent do we need to be in order for that to be feasible? Kafka wrote in German. Exophonic writers. There are many, Camus, Joseph Conrad, Tom Stoppard... Who's your favourite Exophonic author?
Back here to say thank you for so much richness in your comments, Alexander. The Shogun show really interests me -- I wonder who had this resistance to the subtitles and how it was all decided. Very progressive for the time and seems to have worked.
I didn't realize Bavarian is so different from 'German'! So I assume you speak both? And the schools must use High German?
Schools teach High German. There are over 60 known Bavarian Dialects and not all Regiolects are registered as separate dialect but still words can completely differ between villages less than 30 km apart! Fascinating. I studied German Linguistics :)
Re: Shogun, there’s a remake due next year and from the trailer I saw it has subtitles. Figures...
Also: there are so many great replies, sorry if I missed this, but do you ever write fiction in German? And if so, which do you use?
I have a Fantasy novel written in German that used dialect for some character, has some tech language in English and is a satire on the high fantasy genre, a mix of Tolkien, Pratchett and Adams. 450 pages. Collecting dust in a drawer 😅
Still it will be nice to know what they’re saying o guess!
Yeah, subtitles may be the least of their problems ;)
And yes, I speak both. With an outrageous French accent! 😅 j/k
I’m on a phone so coming back to this brilliant comment and several others, but first just came to say Milan Kundera! And I love the question.
Milan Kundera <3
I only saw "The Unbearable Lightness of Being" I know... I really must read the book! What did you make of the adaptation, if you saw it? Mine is Camus. La Chute.
Also a great choice though I haven't read that book by Camus!
I watched the film sooooo long ago...I remember liking it, but so much was lost in the adaptation, or perhaps it was subtle, and at that time I had only read Kundera, not taught him. I should go back to it :)
Kundera apparently disliked it. But that's often the case with adaptations. King hates what Kubrick did to/with The Shining...
They probably like the paycheck though 🤭
You make some really interesting points about multilingualism. I think we would all agree that it is important to keep languages alive, particularly where they have been banned (Welsh was for a time), but sometimes a language can be promoted for political reasons and that makes me uncomfortable, particularly when its use becomes impractical or disproportionate.
I studied The Secret Agent by Conrad at school and was astonished not only by the brilliance of the book but the standard of his English which if I remember rightly he learned in adulthood. Now that's facility with languages!
Very impressive indeed, esp. if you learn a language only later in life.
So much to think about once again. My mind is filled with thoughts about the use of language in fiction now.
I thought of Nabokov just now because in Lolita he dips into French to add a certain flare to Humbert Humbert and I found it utterly compelling. It brought his character to life, little quips here and there that simply wouldn't have had the same effect in the same language (though, makes me wonder, is this totally lost in the French versions of the book?!).
Another author who comes to mind who plays with dialect and language a lot of Mark Danielewski, especially in his The Familiar (second time I've thought about this today actually; Brian Funke brought Mark to mind when I was reading his latest poem). If you haven't read it, each character in The Familiar is from a different part of the world, with a different ethnicity/background/quirks and that influences who their chapters are written and how they're set out on the page. There's whole chapters in Singlish, which were baffling to me at first. There's gangland LA vibes, computer coder code-driven narration ... So so much. It blows me away how Mark did it.
Any thoughts on *fictional* languages that appear in fiction? The Dothraki in ASoIaF, or Elvish in Lord of the Rings. Some others have gone to huge lengths to create languages and put them into their fiction, sometimes in large amounts, other times just scant words. It can certainly enrich the experience if done well.
Humbert! What a great reference. The Russians in general seem to enjoy using French (War and Peace). I guess it used to be the aristocratic language. I don't know a lot of details about this. Anyway, I guess it was also first published in Paris so your point is especially interesting.
Don't know Danielewski; sounds great. Adding it to my ever-growing wonderful list. Singlish is so fun; that's enough of a reason for me to check it out already. You probably have a lot of it along with Kongish in Melbourne?
Great thoughts about the fictional languages. I mean, Tolkien was a linguist so it's really fascinating to see what he did there. Newspeak, Nadsat...these all really interest me. There are so many languages already around one could use; I think it shows the cognitive interest merely in the way languages work vs their cultural implications. I guess in a similar way, one can use a new language to be free of the implications when creating one's own fiction. What do you think?
Great additions there with Newspeak and Nadsat. I agree that it frees you of a lot of the issues of implication. I imagine it must give you incredible freedom, actually, but it also must be a huge amount of work to bring in not only a whole new world but a language on top of it. I'm embarassed to say that I didn't know Tolkien was a linguist! That makes a lot of sense!
I think you'd be quite interested with Danielewksi as literary fiction 😄 But yeah, that TBR pile!! (Also, I feel icky self-linking here so I hope you don't mind, but I actually wrote a short piece way back in my nascent Substack days: https://slake.substack.com/p/the-inimitable-brilliance-of-mark. There's a few images of pages from his books to give you a flavour.)
Thanks for linking ☺️ I have saved it for later and others may be interested!
We are all learning all the time if we are ok with not knowing 🤗
I can attest, we Russians love French. <3
Oops autocorrect on Humbert 😂😂
Me again. Just wanted to add something about spaces that are "on the margins". It is interesting how people view their surroundings, location, home area, how they identify with the place they live. We seem to struggle with it, but that is probably just our ignorance of the geography of a particular area. It can become unnecessarily complicated as far as identity is concerned. For example the UK postal system can make life very confusing when one's postal town, ie the town you must include in your address if you want your mail delivered, is in a different county to the one in which you live, or even, as in my case, another country. It makes concepts of location and identity very nebulous. I have other examples of how this can lead to incorrect assumptions about allegiances to tribes but I think that's quite enough from me for one day. Thanks for another interesting post. I'm going to watch those videos of Quarry Bay now!
This is also super fascinating. So you mean, because of your postcode, people assume you’re on the English or Welsh side (culturally/politically) -- something like this? It sounds so complicated. Do you identify more with the space of a different postcode? I’ve never thought of the post this way! And then - there are all those texts arriving by post. Letters, books, etc. or online shopping. You could spy on post and try to interpret someone’s identity. And then you might be way off!
Thanks for listening and your comments. Always enjoy what you have to say! :)
I am always very stimulated by what you write so I talk a lot! 😄
I am probably unusual because I have never been tribal. I find tribalism has more disadvantages than advantages, consequently I don't "identify" with locations in that way. I am not proud to be Welsh, nor ashamed of it. My Welshness is just a fact. Culturally
my tastes gravitate more towards English, however Welsh culture is I think rich and valuable and I would want it preserved if possible.
I think that the postal system here must be run for the convenience of the Royal Mail, and this causes confusion. In my case, the address begins logically enough with house, street, village, then the postal town. The postal town is not my nearest town, nor is it in England, where I am, but Wales. Consequently, if I then add the county, which is in England, the county will not match the town, which is in a different county and country! Finally, the post code is linked with the postal town, so we are back to Wales! If you can follow that you deserve a medal. And I haven't even started on the cultural/political implications of all this nonsense! Please don't block me, I would very much miss The Matterhorn 💛
Hahahaha no you’re safe. This is mind blowing stuff. I think it deserves a full post. Or it could be a song or an interactive choose your own adventure. I am attempting to follow the postal stuff, but I can relate to the fact element of nationality.
Always a good discussion, Jules 🩵🩵
🤣 Thanks for the idea: I might write about it although I may lose a few subscribers in the process 🤪
REFINING!
👍
Hey Jules, thanks for sharing. It's really interesting. My parents live near Llanfair on the borders. It's always quite odd how the roads into Wales wind in and out of England, the sinage slipping into Welsh and back to English and then Welsh again. Borders are such fascinating places.
Hi Simon. It is interesting. I'm not entirely au fait with the history of the borders but I think they have changed over the years, so places that were once in one country are now in another. Now that we are getting used to the extended 20mph speed limits in Wales it can be very confusing when I cross the border into England and it's back to 30mph - a relatively new anomaly if you on the borders! It is also interesting how the languages mingle as regards street and house names in this area. I imagine that may be true of the area your parents live in too.
I've just had to pause the audio because it's uncanny that I am just putting the finishing touches to an article about a trip to Prague where we visited Kafka's house, and spoke phrase book Czech (after a fashion)! I am not superstitious - honestly - but sometimes it's amazing how there are such connections between Substack writers. I won't use the word psychic or I will lose all credibility! 😄
I relate very much to your exploration of language and dialect. I have always been fascinated by it, and though I am fluent only in English I enjoy it very much when I have the opportunity to communicate in another language, no matter how hilarious the consequences. I agree that it's good to go with the flow if you have the nerve, also that each language has its own musicality. I find French so beautiful to listen to and it does have a lightness that is very different to the sensation of German, but I also like that. Lovely that your son will be multilingual.
Ohhhh looking forward to this! I like to think we weave a web of ideas. Do you like reading Kafka, too?
Agree about the sound of French v German but I do like German. It’s just harder for me to pronounce 😅 it sounds very soft when some people speak it, not that softness is always what we want to strive for! More melodic maybe I mean.
I haven't read Kafka - the house where Kafka wrote was my husband's area of interest!
German pronunciation has some sounds that are not easy. E.g the "ch" sound can be soft or hard I think? I have no problem with "ch" (back of the throat) because I am used to that in Welsh. Also the pronunciation of "r" is not easy and can snag in the throat I find. I'm not bad at accents when attempting other languages but since my knowledge of them is poor it has been known to get me into trouble when the person I am speaking to thinks I know more than I do and they go off into a long spiel leaving me lost! The reverse is true of some people. I was recently watching a doc of Francis Bacon being interviewed in French (for another piece!). He was practically fluent but made no attempt at a French accent. I thought it was a shame since he spoke it so well, but I think maybe some people don't hear the music of the sounds when it comes to accents. We all pick up on different things, don't we?
Definitely we do. I also tend to pick up regional accents, which gets me into trouble because then it sounds like I’m mocking people. I believe we discussed this before but slightly different context?
As for German, I find the additional vowels especially difficult. The ü for example. It would be fun to read Kafka in German.
I imagine you would have a lot to say about Welsh as well! Do people write in Welsh? Well now I am carrying on. :)
My mum used to absorb accents. She had relatives from Liverpool and from Newcastle upon Tyne and would start picking up their accent when chatting with them. I think it shows empathy...mirroring?
Yes the umlaut can be tricky can't it!?
Yes there's a lot of Welsh literature. Welsh grammar is a nightmare. When I wrote Welsh essays at school and got them marked the pages would be covered with red ink. When we asked the teacher to teach us the rules he used to say "you just have to get a feel for it!" I dropped Welsh!
Ha. Doesn’t sound very convincing! Red ink is such an old abuser, isn’t it? How many people were traumatised by it?
Yes I wasn't convinced either.
It's the mutations in Welsh that flummoxed me. For example, the Welsh word for "cat" is "cath", but to say "my cat" you would say "fy nghath". The word for "dog" is "ci", (pronounced 'key') but "my dog" is "fy nghi". And it gets worse.
As a German, I find French quite hard. On the other hand, rrrrrolling the RRR is no problem ;)
I was fascinated at how French pronounce some English words, esp. if they start with H or end on "ine" like "engine". äöü and ß yes, yes, and three articles, male, female, neutral vs two in French and one in English. Also, all genders are different! DIE Sonne - LE Soleil, DAS Auto - LA voiture, DER Berg - LA Montagne... I mean... wtf is going on?? :) I love accents, although, it can be tough to understand sometimes. Singing Beowulf in class with your students in Old English is fun, too!
Some really cool ideas about sounds in there. Have you ever done the Beowulf singing?? So cool.
It was a lot of fun, one student even brought a medieval harp.
Yes, languages are a joy so it can be frustrating when you're trying to learn them. I found German grammar difficult and never mastered it at school, but I love trying to speak it. I found French grammar easier. I think English would be a nightmare to learn if it were not so ubiquitous. It is such a hybrid language with lots of odd rules.
On the other hand, French is the only language where I had contradicting Grammar books in school as I recall. Talk about odd rules, esp. when counting beyond 69... 😅
Recounting a phone number in French:
« quatre vingt dix huit ,... »
Wait do you mean 420108 ?? Or 98? 😂
That must have been confusing!
Yes, when you're having a conversation in another language numbers are always hard to recall/understand quickly if you are not fluent.
Why is le vagin MALE?! That always baffled me lol. French is hard. But it is easier if you know Russian or Spanish. Similar rules. But Russian may be easier because the rules and exceptions make sense.
Etymology would dictate its because of its Latin roots? Either way, because someone decided!
Great podcast. When listening to this, a book that immediately came to mind was The Yield by Tara June Winch. It is about a Wiradjuri family in Australia, their land threatened by mining, and the dictionary of their language that the grandfather is writing. The story is interspersed with these beautiful dictionary entries of Wiradjuri words, a layering right there, giving a sense of the richness of culture and ways of seeing that is under threat.
When I was at school I once wrote a story with several pages of dialogue in a fictional language. The English teacher asked whether I could provide a translation and I think I was offended at the idea. Another of those episodes where I want to go back and ask a younger me what I was thinking about!
Wolf Hall is laced with Italian (a song, food, names). Unusually for an Englishman, Cromwell was fluent in Italian and had spent some years there. His cosmopolitanism (both insider and outsider) gives a unique perspective on Englishness throughout the books.
Thanks so much, Simon! I don't know Winch's work. That sounds great. I think there's a lot more to say about indigenous languages as well in this concept. I think also of Erdrich's The Sentence (Minnesota).
Wow, you used a fictional language! English teacher's dream or nightmare :) For me it's a dream. So creative and fascinating the choice you made to do this.
I look forward to reading all this Italian in Wolf Hall! I had no idea about that aspect.
This was absolutely fascinating and illuminating. Your son enjoying German makes me think about the times when my granny and I used to sing in French and German, recite poems in these languages, just for fun. And of course, the part about two languages merging together made me think about a game character in two games (Control and Alan Wake II) whose name is Ahti. He's a Finnish janitor who often speaks words in Finnish between English, making a whole jumbly mess, probably on purpose. He's meant to be funny, but also wise. He would say sentences that feel like proverbs that are supposed to guide you somehow in your journey. And it all sounds so very Finnish culturally. I thought it was cool how Remedy started including Finnish culture and lore in their games. Fascinating people, they are!
The Finns intrigue me so much! (As does game culture now :) ) Thanks for these great additions to the conversation, Nadia.
What language context do you currently live/work in? It’s funny what sticks with us from childhood. My mom’s grandparents were also French and German. She majored in French at university but never went to France until I moved there and she was already in her late 50s! But my point is she was influenced by her grandmother even though the next generation in America at the time was told to forget their mother tongues. Then, we delighted in French things like songs or cooking and I had this desire all the time to learn more.
I’m floating into nostalgia but I think there is such a wonderful matrix of life connected through languages like this.
Your family history is beautiful. No wonder you all gravitate towards it. It's in your blood. It's a shame America wasn't very welcoming of different languages. I wonder how it is in countries with multilingualism. If people get along well. Maybe there may be a bit of tension but overall harmony? Where I was born (Kazakhstan), Kazakh and Russian were main languages. I'm Russian so I spoke that but also learned a bit of Kazakh. English was also taught in school. Bu when we immigrated to Canada, I forgot everything lol. Then I relearned English, then learned French since I lived in Montreal. Learned a bit of Spanish and German in school too. Ever since then, all these languages have been a jumble in my head. Funnily, at home, I spoke Russian with my family. Russian and French with my granny. French in school, but English during recess. Now, in the States, I speak Russian with my parents when I call them. English, as it's easier, with my husband although we're both Russian. I only speak French when there's a necessity, alas. For work, I've only been using English.
Harmony is a great way to imagine!
I'm so jealous of all your languages :)
A great trove of material. Thank you, Kathleen. I have a lot to say on this subject, as I am an English teacher and an ex-pat living in Barcelona. I speak three languages all day long, and at certain times of my life, have studied four more. Since I don’t need those languages for any practical reason, time constraints have forced me to let them go somewhat, so I would never claim them as languages I speak. Yet each has left an imprint, and I can’t overstate how much all language study affects your linguistic life.
You know that with language learning, the memorization is continuous, and the brain is always looking to make associations. So if I say tabaq, plate in Arabic, it helps me to remember that tabac in French means tobacco. Things like this. The multilingual experience gives us a richer base of cognitive metaphors, and much more poetry. For example, if we're fighting a fire in English, we are pumping water in Spanish or French. If a bicycle headlight in European Spanish is simply a ‘lámpara’, in Argentine Spanish it’s ‘un sol de noche’, a sun in the night.
Another thing is construction. When it feels right, I sometimes change word order in my writing, and this is strictly because of having studied other grammars.
And finally, I have three times the etymological input of a monolingual writer. Nothing is wasted.
As I said before, the brain is constantly making new associations and consolidating everything we learn.
Thanks so much for your comment on your experience with multilingualism, Camila! Barcelona (especially as an English teacher expat) is certainly an interesting language matrix to consider. I love the way you talk about the way your brain works among languages. On a very simple level, I always used French to learn Italian because they are so similar. Also some words feel more correct in certain languages and I occasionally mix them in. My husband does this with a few Khmer words he picked up during his 3 years in Cambodia. I also like the ideas about grammar and structure. This is true! My multilingual students have had to learn it’s a blessing not a curse :)
Thanks again!
Hi Kate! Your podcast accompanied me on my bike commute home. We have more in common that I realised - I’m still working in international schools and also have deep values around multilingualism. And Switzerland is now in our top 2 for places to move to next. I’ve lived in Geneva twice before, loved it, and less excited about German speaking Switzerland not just bc I don’t speak German and do speak French, but bc even if we learn German, that’s indeed not super helpful on the streets and playgrounds for chit chatting. Anyway, we may end up there anyway, but its indeed a concern. Enjoyed listening and I enjoy as a reader having multiple languages woven in a text...
Vanessa! That's so great. We will have to chat about this :)
Well, I really wouldn't worry about that. I find that Swiss Germans are often happier to speak English or French than High German (even though they all know it fluently from school). Also foreigners using High German are forgiven much more than Germans using it :) In any case, most people are friendly like anywhere and if you can offer French as well, you should be all set. I even find the government officials to be both friendly and speak English willingly (unlike Austria...). I often use French with people as well and it turns into a fun connection. The ski areas are something else - you often hear about 6 languages intermixed at a single table at après haha, fun for an international jet setter like yourself!
Hi Kate! Oh this is encouraging to hear! Thank you for sharing this, great to have this perspective.
Just reply to one of my post emails or on IG if you want to chat about it more :) Good luck!
Thanks! If that possible future becomes a probable reality I most definitely will, thank you!