Well, isn't this cool? I'm writing a story that takes place in both Germany and France, prior, during, and after, World War Two. I don't find myself using a lot of German or French words, except for place names, like streets and such, titles of musical pieces, and the name of a gay club in Paris. I can understand how using a foreign language might enhance a story, if it's needed. I tend to be careful how and when I use it. Maybe a German word while he's in Paris, because then it would be foreign, but not foreign to the story. If he utters a curse at someone below his breath, naturally it would be in German. I believe if it's used too much, it takes away from the story's flow.
We know the name as Frankfurt, but on Google Maps, it's "Frankfurt am Main". I would use that name once, and then just call it Frankfurt after that. I'd mention the name of the bridge he's on as he crosses the river, but not the river's name, because every city along the river is "am Main". I'd use "Offenbach am Main" after using "Frankfurt am Main". The reader's going to figure out that the name of the river is Main. But that's just the way I do things. I'm writing for an audience that's basically English speaking. It's not that I'm keeping the reader in mind, I'm trying to make it sound right to myself first. If I can understand it, and it makes sense to me, the reader will as well. Anybody that's reading my stuff is reading it because they like it. There's a lot of writers out there, and if you're going to read someone, you're reading for the voice as much as you are the story. I write stories that I like to read, and hope others will as well.
I always find it interesting that we 'translate' places instead of using the original name or even pronunciation (or trying to). Then again, I guess Österreich is quite difficult for English speakers to stay, for example. Anyway, I think places are an interesting way of approaching these questions. Thanks Ben!
This is such a wonderful approach. I wish I had encountered it earlier. It would have come in handy with the diverse cast of characters I cover in Harmony House each week. I wish I had your brain for planning. I have to just immerse myself and stumble around through trial and error to figure out what words fit in the mouths of my characters.
Oh, I think this would work so well with a changing perspectives fiction like yours! I have yet to write one myself. I like the idea of trial and error. I do find dialogue to be the trickiest thing in fiction, probably for this reason. Making each one sound authentic with their own language matrix is super hard.
I am not always organized before :) Some of these layers are planned and some come later or are recognized in hindsight and then I develop them more. Anyway, in regards to this strategy, I do think a little can go a long way! Thanks for your comments, Ben.
I also wish I had Kate's brain for planning and knowledge of language and literature 😆
But, I can say with absolute confidence that you're pulling off what you intended with Harmony House, Ben. The characters are distinct in their voice and POVs, plus your accent work lifts that even further :)
Consider the language of the story you’re writing. Why did you choose this language? Does it match the setting of the fiction or not? What other languages might be in play in your setting?
In the short story I'm currently working on, I'm trying to include feelings and descriptions instead of words. For one, I'd have no idea writing dialogue for Neolithic and Bronze Age people, and then as we move along Roman trade routes from Britain to India there'd be a lot of different ancient versions of languages spoken. What I have done is include a few words on Roman statues, so along the way we learn the name of gods at shrines or temples. I might change it up and include speech in the next temple visit. In my latest weekly roundup I talked about visiting the Roman Mithraeum beneath London. https://harveyhamer.substack.com/p/weekly-roundup-vol-8 . They actually provided me with a transcript of the immersive experience, so I have verbatim in Latin and English the supposed ancient rituals.
As for writing more present-day characters and places from other countries, I normally try to keep place names as their local name, but for the rest of the time keep in English. I made one exception in another short story where Un Anno sounds better than One Year. But I never really have two much code switching going on.
As for encountering other languages, I don't have much experience. French, German and Spanish at school. I'm much more fluent in German from doing it for GCSE, but have been much more surrounded by French on lots of holidays, and Dutch as well from visiting family friends there. I'm also sure I use so many regional English sayings, but I'm a bit of a mixture. My dad's from the Midlands but we live in the South east where my mum's from so I had a mixture of two dialects growing up. My friends always point out when I pronounce bath or grass 'like an American'.
I love this idea of describing arts and artifacts to try to get to the feel of a people, place, and time. Really cool way to approach this!
I'm also really interested in the 'translated places' concept (as I note in reply to Ben W in these comments).
Like an American! Funny. My son has an American mom (me) and British dad. if we are in the UK, everyone talks about his cute American accent (often described as southern, though I'm from New England). In the states, he's got a 'charming British' accent.
Thank you for these kind words and the opportunity to share! And yeah I'm kind of like your son then. Too Northern for the South of England and too posh for the Midlands
I'm enjoying this series very much! It also contradicts the findings of two Substackers who hosted a zoom meeting called "Business Clinic: Why Isn't My Substack Gaining Any Traction?" last night, wherein, the host and guest agreed that Substack is not a good platform for fiction. I disagree, and you are a very good example of someone who IS doing exactly what they say is not worth trying! Kudos!!
Oh I didn’t know about that Zoom. Thanks so much! Happy you’re enjoying it! I’ve found some great fiction Stacks recently as well. There’s a lot of dialogue now about helping the fiction stacks with things like maybe ebooks or embedded table of contents. Let’s see. But I appreciate this very much, Camila ☺️
Oh and now I just think of someone else who does this a lot (and I know, I should post this in the Podcast post instead, but I'm being lazy): David Mitchell's Cloud Atlas. The transition of time periods and the associated change in language is so, so good.
Thanks again for all these stimulating ideas, Kate. I'm mostly writing in fictional worlds, so any incorporation of different languages/dialect needs to come from a fictional place, which is tricky for me given I am rubbish and only ever learnt my mother tongue 😅 This does make me want to think more about dialect differences though and how these can bring in some differences in character.
I meant to also note in your Podcast post on this about Marlon James and his Dark Star Trilogy. I've only read the first book. He plays with language a lot. It makes it not an easy read, but a good and interesting one.
I'm going to workshop you for a minute...hope you don't mind 😂
So, you're writing in English but it's a fictional place. But you're from England (with some kind of regional dialect) and have been living in Australia a long time now. Do you find that you write in one of these Englishes or that the characters take on certain language personas in this way? Do you write more in an 'academic English'? I think this is also a specific kind - being from next to Harvard and all, I know it well - both the actual one we as academics use in writing (sort of internationally recognized, certain terminology, etc.) and the one that people speaking like to put on to make you think they go to Harvard ;) [Maybe there's one for Oxford , too? Zadie Smith plays with this also in On Beauty in a pseudo-Harvard environment.] I digress. So, your language choices certainly aren't flat -- I guess you could embellish elements of English without even making a new language or mix up certain accents or dialects, even create localized idioms.
I don't write this way or haven't yet at least, but you really made me think about it just now.
To add to the mix: I've spent year writing in scientific English for my job, so 🤷♂️
There might be the occasional colloquialism that works its way in, but I'd really have to go back and analyse to see whether any Australian has affected the way I write. But, I think the biggest influence on me (because I'm fully aware of my inner voice chatting along in specific ways) is what I've read and what I'm reading. I can't help but feel a writer's prose seep into my being, especially when it's one I enjoy so much. It's infectious and, although I don't want to mirror them, some part of that inevitably comes through, I suspect.
It is really hard. I’m also often unaware in English. My first novel took place in Paris and I wrote most of it there. It changed my language somehow even though it was in English with a few French phrases. I didn’t recognise this until working with a small writing group and somebody asked (nicely) if English was my first language. Ha.
There are a lot of people mixed between our communities so maybe we can give you some feedback on it next time!
Nov 16, 2023·edited Nov 16, 2023Liked by Dr. Kathleen Waller
It is interesting how language use locates us, even years after we've left our respective childhood homes (if we do) and rambled through various geographical, cultural, and economic settings. I can tell a joke about my father, imitating his voice, cadence, and pronounciation, and right away I am transported back to a little factory town surrounded by (mostly) failing dairy farms, and even further back to rural, Swedish-speaking Finland near the shore of the Baltic Sea. Those hearing the joke might hear the upstate "Sconnie" (northern Wisconsin, USA) if they're familiar with the lilt, and others might pick up on word choices that place me in mid-20th century working class America.
That said, I struggle with showing this language in my writing, which seems to me much more detached, devoid of the familiar (and familial) characteristics that create an emotional undertone of connection. I want to depict that world honestly and with much more nuance than in films such as Fargo or Grumpy Old Men. I'm glad to see "our" culture in films at all, but it would be nice to quit using the clichés for humor and to delve into and share the complexity of so many lives.
This is such a great reflection, Paula. I agree it can be so hard to write some of these dialects and idioms into text (also that's clearly understood by others).
My extended family is all from Minnesota, so I get you! I mean, I've seen this with a bad Boston accent as well. However, I went to a strange existential play about ice fishing in MN in London's West End and was horrified at the accent. I do think they meant well and were going for authenticity and engagement with local culture. However, as a semi-local, I felt misrepresented. Sometimes it's still good to try it out, but I agree if it's cliché it can be annoying at best and potentially dangerous.
It's so nice to be seen and heard! I lived north of Duluth for a while and on Cape Cod too, so I cringe at "wicked" and weirdly spelled dropped "r's." Would love to know more about the ice fishing play. Could have been a hoot!
Well, isn't this cool? I'm writing a story that takes place in both Germany and France, prior, during, and after, World War Two. I don't find myself using a lot of German or French words, except for place names, like streets and such, titles of musical pieces, and the name of a gay club in Paris. I can understand how using a foreign language might enhance a story, if it's needed. I tend to be careful how and when I use it. Maybe a German word while he's in Paris, because then it would be foreign, but not foreign to the story. If he utters a curse at someone below his breath, naturally it would be in German. I believe if it's used too much, it takes away from the story's flow.
We know the name as Frankfurt, but on Google Maps, it's "Frankfurt am Main". I would use that name once, and then just call it Frankfurt after that. I'd mention the name of the bridge he's on as he crosses the river, but not the river's name, because every city along the river is "am Main". I'd use "Offenbach am Main" after using "Frankfurt am Main". The reader's going to figure out that the name of the river is Main. But that's just the way I do things. I'm writing for an audience that's basically English speaking. It's not that I'm keeping the reader in mind, I'm trying to make it sound right to myself first. If I can understand it, and it makes sense to me, the reader will as well. Anybody that's reading my stuff is reading it because they like it. There's a lot of writers out there, and if you're going to read someone, you're reading for the voice as much as you are the story. I write stories that I like to read, and hope others will as well.
Thanks for sharing how this relates to your work!
I always find it interesting that we 'translate' places instead of using the original name or even pronunciation (or trying to). Then again, I guess Österreich is quite difficult for English speakers to stay, for example. Anyway, I think places are an interesting way of approaching these questions. Thanks Ben!
This is such a wonderful approach. I wish I had encountered it earlier. It would have come in handy with the diverse cast of characters I cover in Harmony House each week. I wish I had your brain for planning. I have to just immerse myself and stumble around through trial and error to figure out what words fit in the mouths of my characters.
Oh, I think this would work so well with a changing perspectives fiction like yours! I have yet to write one myself. I like the idea of trial and error. I do find dialogue to be the trickiest thing in fiction, probably for this reason. Making each one sound authentic with their own language matrix is super hard.
I am not always organized before :) Some of these layers are planned and some come later or are recognized in hindsight and then I develop them more. Anyway, in regards to this strategy, I do think a little can go a long way! Thanks for your comments, Ben.
I also wish I had Kate's brain for planning and knowledge of language and literature 😆
But, I can say with absolute confidence that you're pulling off what you intended with Harmony House, Ben. The characters are distinct in their voice and POVs, plus your accent work lifts that even further :)
Thanks, Nathan.
Consider the language of the story you’re writing. Why did you choose this language? Does it match the setting of the fiction or not? What other languages might be in play in your setting?
In the short story I'm currently working on, I'm trying to include feelings and descriptions instead of words. For one, I'd have no idea writing dialogue for Neolithic and Bronze Age people, and then as we move along Roman trade routes from Britain to India there'd be a lot of different ancient versions of languages spoken. What I have done is include a few words on Roman statues, so along the way we learn the name of gods at shrines or temples. I might change it up and include speech in the next temple visit. In my latest weekly roundup I talked about visiting the Roman Mithraeum beneath London. https://harveyhamer.substack.com/p/weekly-roundup-vol-8 . They actually provided me with a transcript of the immersive experience, so I have verbatim in Latin and English the supposed ancient rituals.
As for writing more present-day characters and places from other countries, I normally try to keep place names as their local name, but for the rest of the time keep in English. I made one exception in another short story where Un Anno sounds better than One Year. But I never really have two much code switching going on.
As for encountering other languages, I don't have much experience. French, German and Spanish at school. I'm much more fluent in German from doing it for GCSE, but have been much more surrounded by French on lots of holidays, and Dutch as well from visiting family friends there. I'm also sure I use so many regional English sayings, but I'm a bit of a mixture. My dad's from the Midlands but we live in the South east where my mum's from so I had a mixture of two dialects growing up. My friends always point out when I pronounce bath or grass 'like an American'.
I love this idea of describing arts and artifacts to try to get to the feel of a people, place, and time. Really cool way to approach this!
I'm also really interested in the 'translated places' concept (as I note in reply to Ben W in these comments).
Like an American! Funny. My son has an American mom (me) and British dad. if we are in the UK, everyone talks about his cute American accent (often described as southern, though I'm from New England). In the states, he's got a 'charming British' accent.
Thanks for your comments, Harvey!
Thank you for these kind words and the opportunity to share! And yeah I'm kind of like your son then. Too Northern for the South of England and too posh for the Midlands
Sometimes it's good to be elusive!
Edit: Many abroad have trouble placing me in the US, or even as American. I like it. One can play with this concept...
One can indeed...
I'm enjoying this series very much! It also contradicts the findings of two Substackers who hosted a zoom meeting called "Business Clinic: Why Isn't My Substack Gaining Any Traction?" last night, wherein, the host and guest agreed that Substack is not a good platform for fiction. I disagree, and you are a very good example of someone who IS doing exactly what they say is not worth trying! Kudos!!
Oh I didn’t know about that Zoom. Thanks so much! Happy you’re enjoying it! I’ve found some great fiction Stacks recently as well. There’s a lot of dialogue now about helping the fiction stacks with things like maybe ebooks or embedded table of contents. Let’s see. But I appreciate this very much, Camila ☺️
Oh and now I just think of someone else who does this a lot (and I know, I should post this in the Podcast post instead, but I'm being lazy): David Mitchell's Cloud Atlas. The transition of time periods and the associated change in language is so, so good.
Post it anywhere! I really have to make a list of these recommendations somehow. bookshop.org? separate post in January after all this? hmm
Separate posts sounds like a great idea.
"Books I now have to read thanks to readers" or something 😉
Like it!! 🌟
Thanks again for all these stimulating ideas, Kate. I'm mostly writing in fictional worlds, so any incorporation of different languages/dialect needs to come from a fictional place, which is tricky for me given I am rubbish and only ever learnt my mother tongue 😅 This does make me want to think more about dialect differences though and how these can bring in some differences in character.
I meant to also note in your Podcast post on this about Marlon James and his Dark Star Trilogy. I've only read the first book. He plays with language a lot. It makes it not an easy read, but a good and interesting one.
Thank you for your unique perspective, Nathan!
I'm going to workshop you for a minute...hope you don't mind 😂
So, you're writing in English but it's a fictional place. But you're from England (with some kind of regional dialect) and have been living in Australia a long time now. Do you find that you write in one of these Englishes or that the characters take on certain language personas in this way? Do you write more in an 'academic English'? I think this is also a specific kind - being from next to Harvard and all, I know it well - both the actual one we as academics use in writing (sort of internationally recognized, certain terminology, etc.) and the one that people speaking like to put on to make you think they go to Harvard ;) [Maybe there's one for Oxford , too? Zadie Smith plays with this also in On Beauty in a pseudo-Harvard environment.] I digress. So, your language choices certainly aren't flat -- I guess you could embellish elements of English without even making a new language or mix up certain accents or dialects, even create localized idioms.
I don't write this way or haven't yet at least, but you really made me think about it just now.
Ooo, good points. I, errr, don't know 😅
To add to the mix: I've spent year writing in scientific English for my job, so 🤷♂️
There might be the occasional colloquialism that works its way in, but I'd really have to go back and analyse to see whether any Australian has affected the way I write. But, I think the biggest influence on me (because I'm fully aware of my inner voice chatting along in specific ways) is what I've read and what I'm reading. I can't help but feel a writer's prose seep into my being, especially when it's one I enjoy so much. It's infectious and, although I don't want to mirror them, some part of that inevitably comes through, I suspect.
It is really hard. I’m also often unaware in English. My first novel took place in Paris and I wrote most of it there. It changed my language somehow even though it was in English with a few French phrases. I didn’t recognise this until working with a small writing group and somebody asked (nicely) if English was my first language. Ha.
There are a lot of people mixed between our communities so maybe we can give you some feedback on it next time!
Sounds like a great idea, Kate.
It is interesting how language use locates us, even years after we've left our respective childhood homes (if we do) and rambled through various geographical, cultural, and economic settings. I can tell a joke about my father, imitating his voice, cadence, and pronounciation, and right away I am transported back to a little factory town surrounded by (mostly) failing dairy farms, and even further back to rural, Swedish-speaking Finland near the shore of the Baltic Sea. Those hearing the joke might hear the upstate "Sconnie" (northern Wisconsin, USA) if they're familiar with the lilt, and others might pick up on word choices that place me in mid-20th century working class America.
That said, I struggle with showing this language in my writing, which seems to me much more detached, devoid of the familiar (and familial) characteristics that create an emotional undertone of connection. I want to depict that world honestly and with much more nuance than in films such as Fargo or Grumpy Old Men. I'm glad to see "our" culture in films at all, but it would be nice to quit using the clichés for humor and to delve into and share the complexity of so many lives.
This is such a great reflection, Paula. I agree it can be so hard to write some of these dialects and idioms into text (also that's clearly understood by others).
My extended family is all from Minnesota, so I get you! I mean, I've seen this with a bad Boston accent as well. However, I went to a strange existential play about ice fishing in MN in London's West End and was horrified at the accent. I do think they meant well and were going for authenticity and engagement with local culture. However, as a semi-local, I felt misrepresented. Sometimes it's still good to try it out, but I agree if it's cliché it can be annoying at best and potentially dangerous.
It's so nice to be seen and heard! I lived north of Duluth for a while and on Cape Cod too, so I cringe at "wicked" and weirdly spelled dropped "r's." Would love to know more about the ice fishing play. Could have been a hoot!
Nice Fish. It was amazing to see Mark Rylance but...this was not his best work in my opinion!
https://www.officialtheatre.com/harold-pinter-theatre/nice-fish/
Oooh, makes me think about a version of _Waiting for Godot_ set on a northern lake to be named later.
PS wicked when used correctly is the best :) but then it has to be pronounced correctly! 😂