I must have missed that Notes thread on punctuation in dialogue, but that is something I have been thinking a LOT on lately. Leaving it out where I can. Tell what’s said rather than punctuating what’s said.
I’m reading Elena Ferrante right now and she does so masterfully.
Really liked this Kate! I need to check out more Cormac McCarthy - so far I've only read The Road and I think it's sheer bleakness stopped me reading more!
Fascinating to see the contrast in your writing between the free-wheeling sketch and the more measured but equally fluent comments on Cormac McCarthy. At the same time, there's a common thread of a preoccupation with language. I really enjoyed reading you explore the two styles.
Thank you, Jeffrey! Interesting you say that because I have been thinking a lot about distinguishing different voices and experimenting with that. And it's true, I find there is commonality among the types of writing I do. Appreciate this.
I also enjoyed the two halves of this essay and how they spoke to one another. The "free-wheeling" nature of the part about writing in the cafe and McCarthy's avoidance of punctuation are both efforts to escape the limits of more formal writing. I'm scouting fro a new book thread, so thanks for the idea of Blood Meridian.
Smiled throughout all of this, Kate. The word sketch was so fluid and had meaning that resonated with me. I remember you mentioning the concept of word sketches a good while ago.
Appreciate the return to McCarthy and the discussion of dialogue. Passenger and Stella Marris are on my TBR pile! Thanks for the note on Alexis, too!
It's a win if this made you smile. Also, I think you will like these books. I wish I could find that thread, but the thought has lingered with me as I read other texts.
I'll see if I can find it. It was just before the second instalment of the Sernox, because it related to whether or not I was going to ditch using speech marks/dialogue attribution for that piece.
I agree with Tom Fish. Cormac McCarthy is too bleak and dark for me. I am intrigued with the idea of drawing in the reader by limiting punctuation, forcing his/her attention.
Right now I'm reading "Demon Copperfield" and enjoy it. I'm rewatching the show "Elementary", a really consistently well done retelling of the Sherlock Holmes stories which I highly recommend. I'm currently working on a murder mystery about what happens when politics intersects with principled people.
Thanks for these other recs. I've been meaning to get back to Kingsolver for ages. We read The Beantrees in high school, and I can't tell you what happened in the book, but I just remember feeling huge love for that writing. Also interested in Elementary. A colleague of mine in Hong Kong does a lot of work with Sherlock Holmes and I think it's such a fascinating narrative with all its adaptations. Thanks Phil!
The Road by McCarthy might be one of the most deeply affecting things I’ve read. It’s the only one of his novels that I’ve tackled though so I have to explore more - you’ve sold The Passenger to me. You’ve got such an atmospheric style.
I found The Road so difficult! Maybe it's the child, the bleakness...but it is also beautifully written and haunting. Hope you enjoy The Passenger and thanks for the comment, Jack!
interests in Cormac McCarthy stem initially from son’s interests but never needed finishing Blood Meridian - ‘term itself long been embedded in myself.. over 1/2 century ago perhaps .. but early chapters of All The Pretty Horses quite special & far beyond in my perspectives
As for punctuation aspects ? Upon troubles settling into ‘True History Of The Kelly Gang’ / gave er arrest a while - till finally turning to original Huckleberry Finn for mucho needed realignment of the condition my condition found it was in.. years later (‘actually’) read ‘all the pretty horses upon finding the copy in birdhouse library in the neighbourhood..
While keeping secrets & endeavouring @ not naming names / pointing fingers - can daily see astonishing ‘literary abuses here - dread repetitive pronoun use - primarily ‘I’ & ‘he & she’ - whether in single sentence / simple brief paragraphs.. oh deary me ! The brief explains by Cormac delightfully effective though !
ps - Robert B Parker’s dialogue the real deal - Elmore Leonard’s Cuba Libre the bomb .. 🦎🏴☠️🇨🇦
Loved reading these two texts side by side here, Kate — one rhapsodic in search of inspiration for the act of radical creation, the other measured and considerate to the intricacies of language.
The variety of approaches you take to your work is exactly what I love about the Matterhorn! 💙
Absolutely — when I get bogged down in the wordiness of writing, looking for the musical line or melodic thread in a sentence or paragraph brings me exciting new perspectives.
You’re welcome! Kingsolver’s great. Demon Copperhead is a fun retelling that, despite being about serious things, has a humor to it that’s compelling. You should definitely watch “Elementary”! It’s very well written, acted, and directed. In addition Jonny Lee Miller and Lucy Liu are instantly engaging (and Moriarty is very surprising!) I’ve seen most, if not all the adaptations and this one is by far my favorite.
"Halfway through, I lose it." Don't we all know this? Blasted muse. Come back! As for Blood Meridian, it's on my list, my long list. And re punctuation and dialogue... who holds prose prisoner in the hallowed bastion of rules and style guides for what reason we know we do don't we?
Happy it's relatable...if just as frustrating for you! :)
Ha. These are my thoughts exactly about style. Know style, subvert it, play with it, own it yourself. I do still think it's helpful/important for everyone to first learn convention though.
¡Brava! This is an intriguing meta-sketch. You show how this process of reading and writing can flow into each other. (I’m currently reading “The Weekend Novelist” by Robert Ray.) The piece is assembled as a work of art. Your essays are a geographer’s dream (I teach social sciences, so I can imagine). And this shows how reading and writing can be collective (hey, I’ve heard that word before [!]).
Thank you so much, Angel! This means a lot coming from you as an artist - geographer. So interesting, because place is always at the heart of things for me, but I didn't realize or mean to do anything with it here. It's only implicit but I guess we can both feel it.
The Ray book is intriguing. Could be very useful for me next year when I am back to teaching full time as well. Is it useful/insightful?
Also, funny, I was recording a podcast on the layering of fiction through collective experience and trauma at the time of your comment.
That’s the beauty of art - making what is implicit explicit and vice versa.
Yes, the book has been immensely helpful in organizing different elements of a story - comparisons to screenplays are all over. Even though it’s the first edition and new ones have come out since. I’ve felt this has been good enough for me. (Funny, I picked it up at the same bookstore where we jam!)
Kate - enjoyed this read. In regards to the first part of your article - sometimes I write for an hour and look back on it and think to myself what the hell did I just write. I have to walk away from it and let it fester in the back of my head before I come back and put it in some semblance of order. Sometimes the chaos is too much.
Love Cormac's works. I have read most of what he has written. I think I four books to go. His writing is disturbing but sometimes we need to be disturbed.
I am reading The Grapes of Wrath for my Steinbeck review. This past weekend I also read two really disturbing books, The Circle and The Every, both by Dave Eggers. I think they should be required reading. Eggers as prescient in his description of where society was heading.
Happy this is relatable, Matthew! I also think that stuff we throw away is still useful, either in process or to look back on. Maybe there's something salvageable as well. Interesting as well about chaos and order. I hadn't thought about that in terms of this experience but it is in my thoughts a lot as I write.
Agree, we need to be disturbed (sometimes). It helps us move forward as both individuals and as a whole humanity. The Circle made a huge impression on me. Haven't read The Every. What do you think? The Circle really made me consider pulling a Thoreau and moving to the woods...!! The scariest thing is that even 10 years ago we were already doing a lot of the things that you read it in and think 'wow, that's scary.' I still remember my English teacher in high school reading the last paragraph of GoW. I'm not sure I could really understand it at that point but the unsettling nature sparked a lot of interesting discussion. Look forward to your post!
Kate - circling back on this to answer your question about The Every. It was disturbing. It took The Circle to a different level in a really scary sort of way. I feel it is scary because you can see the signs of it everywhere and people seem to be oblivious. The ending blew my mind, didn't see it coming at all.
On a separate topic - Substack needs to fix the notifications system. I knew in my head I needed to answer this comment but I couldn't find it in my notifications. Wish we could archive notifications we have finished with and keep those we need to go back to rather than having to scroll through hundreds of notifications. Anyway, I am just ranting.
I love a good muse in a cafe with a journal - I wish there were more in our town with a nice quiet vibe, most of them are pretty focused on blah blah. Cormac McCarthy. Jeez. I've tried to read Blood Meridian twice, and both times, stopped at a certain point which was all at once hallucinatory, fascinating and terrifying. It's like the book booted me from its pages. Read All the Pretty Horses, don't remember it. Read The Road, and found it so bleak I couldn't watch the movie knowing that certain parts would definitely be included and that I couldn't stomach them. Let's just say Cormac and I don't click. ;)
Focused on blah blah? ha. Yes, it's so good to have a delicious cafe atmosphere. Here, it can be a little too quiet in many. Great for concentration, but hard to find your muse. Paris is the best, but I can't hang out in Paris all the time! This particular one is near the French border and comes the closest.
Agree, The Road is too bleak for me. Likewise didn't see the film. I guess with Blood Meridian as scary as it was (in the words you use, absolutely), I found it transformative in some way. Possibly just the use of language but also the deep dive into the human psyche and I'm fascinated (horrified) by the West and everything that has happened and still does between 'settlers' and 'Indians'. How could it be so vicious? But it really was.
Thanks for this interesting post, Kathleen. I'm a big fan of Cormac McCarthy and felt a deep sense of loss when he died. I think his preferred style, using as little punctuation as possible, shows his consummate skill as a writer. I rarely found it a problem reading his words. I haven't read all his work but, like you, I'm going to read as many of his books as I can.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you explain how and why McCarthy did this with his punctuation. Happy reading, Yasmin! And thanks for your comment.
I must have missed that Notes thread on punctuation in dialogue, but that is something I have been thinking a LOT on lately. Leaving it out where I can. Tell what’s said rather than punctuating what’s said.
I’m reading Elena Ferrante right now and she does so masterfully.
Hi Clancy, Nathan just shared the link to the discussion so I'll link it in the post or see in the thread here. :)
I wish I could find the link! It was such a good thread. Some greatly differing views ;)
I'll have to check her out, thanks!
To save you a scroll ;)
https://substack.com/@slake/note/c-44323582
Really liked this Kate! I need to check out more Cormac McCarthy - so far I've only read The Road and I think it's sheer bleakness stopped me reading more!
Thanks Tom!
Yes, he is definitely bleak...but I think there's a beauty and purpose in his bleakness. Maybe try this one instead.
PS I also found The Road rather depressing!
Popping it on the list thanks! :-)
Fascinating to see the contrast in your writing between the free-wheeling sketch and the more measured but equally fluent comments on Cormac McCarthy. At the same time, there's a common thread of a preoccupation with language. I really enjoyed reading you explore the two styles.
Thank you, Jeffrey! Interesting you say that because I have been thinking a lot about distinguishing different voices and experimenting with that. And it's true, I find there is commonality among the types of writing I do. Appreciate this.
I also enjoyed the two halves of this essay and how they spoke to one another. The "free-wheeling" nature of the part about writing in the cafe and McCarthy's avoidance of punctuation are both efforts to escape the limits of more formal writing. I'm scouting fro a new book thread, so thanks for the idea of Blood Meridian.
Thanks, David. I did not make that connection between my first 'sketch' and McCarthy. I think you're right, though.
Hope you enjoy if you read the book!
Smiled throughout all of this, Kate. The word sketch was so fluid and had meaning that resonated with me. I remember you mentioning the concept of word sketches a good while ago.
Appreciate the return to McCarthy and the discussion of dialogue. Passenger and Stella Marris are on my TBR pile! Thanks for the note on Alexis, too!
It's a win if this made you smile. Also, I think you will like these books. I wish I could find that thread, but the thought has lingered with me as I read other texts.
Thanks Nathan!
Found it :)
https://substack.com/@slake/note/c-44323582
I'll see if I can find it. It was just before the second instalment of the Sernox, because it related to whether or not I was going to ditch using speech marks/dialogue attribution for that piece.
Amazing, thanks so much for searching! I'll link it in and let Clancy know :)
I agree with Tom Fish. Cormac McCarthy is too bleak and dark for me. I am intrigued with the idea of drawing in the reader by limiting punctuation, forcing his/her attention.
Right now I'm reading "Demon Copperfield" and enjoy it. I'm rewatching the show "Elementary", a really consistently well done retelling of the Sherlock Holmes stories which I highly recommend. I'm currently working on a murder mystery about what happens when politics intersects with principled people.
I can surely see that about McCarthy!
Thanks for these other recs. I've been meaning to get back to Kingsolver for ages. We read The Beantrees in high school, and I can't tell you what happened in the book, but I just remember feeling huge love for that writing. Also interested in Elementary. A colleague of mine in Hong Kong does a lot of work with Sherlock Holmes and I think it's such a fascinating narrative with all its adaptations. Thanks Phil!
The Road by McCarthy might be one of the most deeply affecting things I’ve read. It’s the only one of his novels that I’ve tackled though so I have to explore more - you’ve sold The Passenger to me. You’ve got such an atmospheric style.
I found The Road so difficult! Maybe it's the child, the bleakness...but it is also beautifully written and haunting. Hope you enjoy The Passenger and thanks for the comment, Jack!
interests in Cormac McCarthy stem initially from son’s interests but never needed finishing Blood Meridian - ‘term itself long been embedded in myself.. over 1/2 century ago perhaps .. but early chapters of All The Pretty Horses quite special & far beyond in my perspectives
As for punctuation aspects ? Upon troubles settling into ‘True History Of The Kelly Gang’ / gave er arrest a while - till finally turning to original Huckleberry Finn for mucho needed realignment of the condition my condition found it was in.. years later (‘actually’) read ‘all the pretty horses upon finding the copy in birdhouse library in the neighbourhood..
While keeping secrets & endeavouring @ not naming names / pointing fingers - can daily see astonishing ‘literary abuses here - dread repetitive pronoun use - primarily ‘I’ & ‘he & she’ - whether in single sentence / simple brief paragraphs.. oh deary me ! The brief explains by Cormac delightfully effective though !
ps - Robert B Parker’s dialogue the real deal - Elmore Leonard’s Cuba Libre the bomb .. 🦎🏴☠️🇨🇦
Sorry I missed this Thomas. Thanks for the comment! Agree about All the Pretty Horses.
Loved reading these two texts side by side here, Kate — one rhapsodic in search of inspiration for the act of radical creation, the other measured and considerate to the intricacies of language.
The variety of approaches you take to your work is exactly what I love about the Matterhorn! 💙
Thanks so much, Michael 💙
The way you describe voice, it feels like musical experimentation. I would like to channel that concept more regularly!
Absolutely — when I get bogged down in the wordiness of writing, looking for the musical line or melodic thread in a sentence or paragraph brings me exciting new perspectives.
You’re welcome! Kingsolver’s great. Demon Copperhead is a fun retelling that, despite being about serious things, has a humor to it that’s compelling. You should definitely watch “Elementary”! It’s very well written, acted, and directed. In addition Jonny Lee Miller and Lucy Liu are instantly engaging (and Moriarty is very surprising!) I’ve seen most, if not all the adaptations and this one is by far my favorite.
Thanks for the reply.
"Halfway through, I lose it." Don't we all know this? Blasted muse. Come back! As for Blood Meridian, it's on my list, my long list. And re punctuation and dialogue... who holds prose prisoner in the hallowed bastion of rules and style guides for what reason we know we do don't we?
Happy it's relatable...if just as frustrating for you! :)
Ha. These are my thoughts exactly about style. Know style, subvert it, play with it, own it yourself. I do still think it's helpful/important for everyone to first learn convention though.
Definitely know the rules, so you can break them!
Really good piece that provokes my own thought of sketch. Thanks Kate
Thanks Jon! Enjoy your sketching.
¡Brava! This is an intriguing meta-sketch. You show how this process of reading and writing can flow into each other. (I’m currently reading “The Weekend Novelist” by Robert Ray.) The piece is assembled as a work of art. Your essays are a geographer’s dream (I teach social sciences, so I can imagine). And this shows how reading and writing can be collective (hey, I’ve heard that word before [!]).
Thank you so much, Angel! This means a lot coming from you as an artist - geographer. So interesting, because place is always at the heart of things for me, but I didn't realize or mean to do anything with it here. It's only implicit but I guess we can both feel it.
The Ray book is intriguing. Could be very useful for me next year when I am back to teaching full time as well. Is it useful/insightful?
Also, funny, I was recording a podcast on the layering of fiction through collective experience and trauma at the time of your comment.
That’s the beauty of art - making what is implicit explicit and vice versa.
Yes, the book has been immensely helpful in organizing different elements of a story - comparisons to screenplays are all over. Even though it’s the first edition and new ones have come out since. I’ve felt this has been good enough for me. (Funny, I picked it up at the same bookstore where we jam!)
Can't wait to see where your projects lead you!
I must hear your podcast!
Kate - enjoyed this read. In regards to the first part of your article - sometimes I write for an hour and look back on it and think to myself what the hell did I just write. I have to walk away from it and let it fester in the back of my head before I come back and put it in some semblance of order. Sometimes the chaos is too much.
Love Cormac's works. I have read most of what he has written. I think I four books to go. His writing is disturbing but sometimes we need to be disturbed.
I am reading The Grapes of Wrath for my Steinbeck review. This past weekend I also read two really disturbing books, The Circle and The Every, both by Dave Eggers. I think they should be required reading. Eggers as prescient in his description of where society was heading.
Happy this is relatable, Matthew! I also think that stuff we throw away is still useful, either in process or to look back on. Maybe there's something salvageable as well. Interesting as well about chaos and order. I hadn't thought about that in terms of this experience but it is in my thoughts a lot as I write.
Agree, we need to be disturbed (sometimes). It helps us move forward as both individuals and as a whole humanity. The Circle made a huge impression on me. Haven't read The Every. What do you think? The Circle really made me consider pulling a Thoreau and moving to the woods...!! The scariest thing is that even 10 years ago we were already doing a lot of the things that you read it in and think 'wow, that's scary.' I still remember my English teacher in high school reading the last paragraph of GoW. I'm not sure I could really understand it at that point but the unsettling nature sparked a lot of interesting discussion. Look forward to your post!
Thanks for your comments, Matthew!
Kate - circling back on this to answer your question about The Every. It was disturbing. It took The Circle to a different level in a really scary sort of way. I feel it is scary because you can see the signs of it everywhere and people seem to be oblivious. The ending blew my mind, didn't see it coming at all.
On a separate topic - Substack needs to fix the notifications system. I knew in my head I needed to answer this comment but I couldn't find it in my notifications. Wish we could archive notifications we have finished with and keep those we need to go back to rather than having to scroll through hundreds of notifications. Anyway, I am just ranting.
Thanks Matthew. Now I’ve got to read it. Even if I’m afraid to!
Oh yes. I hear you on notifications. I’ve seen a lot of noise about this on Notes recently, so let’s hope something happens!
I love a good muse in a cafe with a journal - I wish there were more in our town with a nice quiet vibe, most of them are pretty focused on blah blah. Cormac McCarthy. Jeez. I've tried to read Blood Meridian twice, and both times, stopped at a certain point which was all at once hallucinatory, fascinating and terrifying. It's like the book booted me from its pages. Read All the Pretty Horses, don't remember it. Read The Road, and found it so bleak I couldn't watch the movie knowing that certain parts would definitely be included and that I couldn't stomach them. Let's just say Cormac and I don't click. ;)
Focused on blah blah? ha. Yes, it's so good to have a delicious cafe atmosphere. Here, it can be a little too quiet in many. Great for concentration, but hard to find your muse. Paris is the best, but I can't hang out in Paris all the time! This particular one is near the French border and comes the closest.
Agree, The Road is too bleak for me. Likewise didn't see the film. I guess with Blood Meridian as scary as it was (in the words you use, absolutely), I found it transformative in some way. Possibly just the use of language but also the deep dive into the human psyche and I'm fascinated (horrified) by the West and everything that has happened and still does between 'settlers' and 'Indians'. How could it be so vicious? But it really was.
Thanks Troy!
In fact, a cafe in a cemetery = $million idea ::))
haha, sounds amazing.
I do tend to like very early mornings, so, rather quiet. But I prefer some kind of culture, edge, personality, even if it's just from the barista!
I'll take the quiet of the grave over the blah blah any day... 👻
Thanks for this interesting post, Kathleen. I'm a big fan of Cormac McCarthy and felt a deep sense of loss when he died. I think his preferred style, using as little punctuation as possible, shows his consummate skill as a writer. I rarely found it a problem reading his words. I haven't read all his work but, like you, I'm going to read as many of his books as I can.
I think you hit the nail on the head when you explain how and why McCarthy did this with his punctuation. Happy reading, Yasmin! And thanks for your comment.